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Sunday, 6 September 2009

Old Man wants all the glory to himself

The Old Man wants it all. Everything. Every single bit of glory there is, he wants it all to himself. And he is doing it, before he checks into the world beyond.

In the following article published in the Straits Times dated 5 Sep 09, Did Lee become PM by one vote?, Old Man claims he has no knowledge of the one vital vote, casted by Dr Toh Chin Chye (the Chairman of the PAP then), that allowed him to be the PM of Singapore. It was a nail-biting 6-6 vote, casted by the "inner core" of the pioneer PAP leaders. It was a tie between Ong Eng Guan and Lee Kuan Yew.

Being a tie, the chairman, Dr Toh, exercised the chair's vote, and Old Man became the PM.

But, Old Man, being what he is, does not want to admit it. He denies that there was such an event. Phew! Now why did Old Man have to wait for 50 years to say that? All along, it was written in the history books that he won by the chair's vote.

Excerpts from the article above:

When chairman Toh Chin Chye received the votes, he opened and counted them one by one. There was a hushed silence when he declared six for Lee and six for Ong. The deadlock could not have been more dramatic. Then exercising his prerogative as chairman, he used his casting vote to break the tie, and Lee went on to be prime minister and to preside over the miraculous transformation of Singapore for the next 31 years.

This cliff-hanger reconstruction is culled from the reminiscences of Toh and then organising secretary Ong Pang Boon in a series of interviews for this book. It corroborated the account making the rounds in countless publications that there was a CEC vote to decide the premiership.

One oft-quoted source was Thomas J. Bellows' The People's Action Party of Singapore: Emergence of a Dominant Party System in which the American scholar recorded that the CEC met to designate a prime minister after the elections and that party chairman Toh voted twice, first in the original vote and then as the result of a tie, a casting vote.

In 2006, the political science professor recalled that 'the person I interviewed was an individual in whom I had especial confidence and was very courteous to a struggling graduate student'. His dissertation for Yale University was based on extensive interviews with members and supporters of all major political parties in 1964 and 1965.

References to the vote were never refuted publicly. In fact, a column on 12 July 1960 by Gordon Hung in The China Mail, which preceded the South China Morning Post, noted Ong's tremendous popularity saying that 'the only thing that seemed to stop him from becoming Singapore's first prime minister was the formality of a vote by the central executive committee'.

Yak Keow Seng, a former PAP activist and close aide of Ong Eng Guan, remembered the former mayor and minister confiding in him and saying that there was indeed a CEC vote after the elections and that he lost to Lee by one vote.

....In what must surely go down as the greatest mystery of the PAP story, Lee said he was completely puzzled by accounts of such a vote. 'I don't remember any such thing. I cannot understand this, that Ong Pang Boon and Toh Chin Chye would say so. If one said so, I can dismiss it, but two said so...

'I led the elections. I crafted the strategy. I made the major campaign speeches. I made the last major broadcast. It was assumed that I would be the leader. I was the man meeting governor William Goode before, during and after the elections, not Ong Eng Guan. I negotiated with him for the release of the detainees, not Ong Eng Guan.'


Boy oh boy. That shows much about Old Man's character. He wants to be worshiped as a god before he leaves this world. If he could "forget" this very important incident (how he became PM of Singapore), what more about all the other tales in his memoirs? Can he be trusted that history as what he told is accurate? Including the merger, and our eventual ouster?

Another article, in relation to the above was also published in the ST on the same day - Was Lim Chin Siong a communist?

In the article above, we are told that Lim Chin Siong was a communist and the PAP had to lock him up, because he was a dangerous man. However, Discovery Channel aired the documentary "History of Singapore" a few years ago. Chin Siong was portrayed in a very different light.

A search on the internet will also reveal a few startling things about the history of Singapore. Here are some pointers.

Before independence, Chin Siong was Lee's biggest threat. While Chin Siong controlled the Chinese ground, Lee had the favours of the British government. But everything was hanging precariously and power could swing to either side.

Lee then planned a merger with Malaysia. It appeared that the merger was an excellent way to rid Chin Siong. Both the Brits and Tengku were uncomfortable with Chin Siong because he appeared to be a communist.

Till today, there is still controversy if he was communist. I would be inclined to believe the Chin Siong sounded communist because he used the Chinese race card to rally the people. (Hey, hasn't Old Man used the same Chinese race card for decades too? And no one dares claim he is a commie?)

I do not believe Chin Siong was a communist. The Brits (whom LKY was very much aligned to) were only too keen to link Chin Siong with the commies to contain him. With the merger planned, Lee had an excellent excuse to get Chin Siong locked up since both the Brits and Tengku did not like to have Chin Siong around.

You can do a search on "Lim Chin Siong" to get more news about the Lim Chin Siong vs Lee Kuan Yew dispute. That was really something.


My opinion on the Lim vs Lee episode

It was either Lim Chin Siong or Lee Kuan Yew. The fight for power to control was on the balance. While Lim used the Chinese ground for his support, Lee used the Brits for his support. What probably tilted the balance was the merger. Lee got the Tengku on his side too, because the Tengku was wary of Lim as well.

After the threat of Lim was over, it was time for Lee to create enough trouble for the Tengku, so that Singapore could be fully independent. Lee's story was that the Tengku kicked Singapore out. Tengku's story was that Lee wanted out and hence created problems.

So who is to be believed?

With the fact now exposed that Old Man is willing to twist history about the single vote by Dr Toh Chin Chye, who knows what other facts he has been twisting since the 1950s? After all, the Tengku is no longer around to dispute the story.


My viewpoint on the merger

The merger probably served Lee very well. It was the perfect way to rid of his biggest adversary, Chin Siong. At the same time, he could engineer for Singapore's independence so that he could be the PM of a truly independent Singapore.

It was not that Lee did not know that Malaysia's constitution stated the special privileges for the Malays. He asked for the merger with his eyes opened. Yet, after merging, he contested that very special privilege. It is like asking your neighbour to invite you to a party, then when he graciously lets you in, you start ordering him how he should host the party.

The merger itself caused Malaysia to have problems with Indonesia and Philippines. Malaysia's plan was to include Sabah, Sarawak and Brunei. Singapore was initially NOT on the list. Singapore asked to be invited and was accepted.

Indonesia and Philippines saw the merger as an expansionist plan by Malaysia and felt threatened. This was the Confrontation period. There were terror attacks from Indonesia against Malaysia. And Singapore, being part of Malaysia by virtue of the merger, was also attacked.

A point that I would like to make here is that, the PAP cites this incident was that the "sea of Malays around us" seeked to attack the majority Chinese Singaporeans.

I feel that Lee is trying to play the race card that Singapore being majority Chinese, are seen as enemies by the Malays around us. The fact was that this was actually about one Malay country (Indonesia) against another Malay country (Malaysia). Singapore was dragged in, because we were part of Malaysia. Not because the Malays were against the Chinese.

The above is yet another twist and lie, in the books of the PAP, headed by Old Man.


My Conclusion

Lee can claim that he is the "Father of Singapore" and that he is the one behind Singapore's success. But we have seen how he twists history, such that he is seen that he has attained a godlike status.

My opinion is that if Ong Eng Guan had been PM, he would have taken Singapore the same path. Perhaps, we would see the Ong Dynasty instead of the Lee Dynasty.

As for Lim Chin Siong, I also feel that if he had been Singapore's PM, we would still be the same Singapore, more or less. Some critics say that he was a communist and would steer away from Western technology, which brought about Singapore's economic success.

I dispute the above. Firstly, it was never proven he was communist. Secondly, if he had been PM, I am sure he would have abandoned his reference to China, changed allies, and taken advantage of the Western influence.

If Lee could have changed so quickly from let's merge with Malaysia to let's create trouble for Malaysia, surely Chin Siong could have changed his spots as quickly as Old Man.

Of course, also if Lim had been PM, in all probability, we would have to tolerate the Lim Dynasty instead.

Singapore does not depend on one man alone. Singapore's success is due to a group of hardworking leaders and citizens. The man at the top is shaped by what the group of leaders and the community do. He is dispensable.....no, he is expendable.

34 comments:

Anonymous said...

Quite a good read and yet not even 1 comment, how sad. Maybe no one even bothers to read because this blog only attracts 2 types of reader: gays and gay-haters.

Anonymous said...

Ok lah, I will say something, so I am neither of the two types and you are wrong about this blog attracting only those types.

Personally, I do not find any point focusing on matters in the past that cannot be changed or have little bearing on our future.

So what if it could have been another? We can't change it.

So what if it was a unanimous vote or no such thing ever happened?

It is still LKY.

Let the old man dream lah.

For me, it is one ear in, one ear out. Whether he thinks everyone loved him has no bearing on what will happen in the future.

So, not point commenting right?

Anonymous said...

Yes we can't change the past, but the future depends on what we do now.

Singaporeans are still pretty much too 'trusting' of our government/politicians. Either that or we just simply don't care.

Awareness and seeking the truth behind cover-ups are the best check-and-balance on government and politicians. If we continue to be apathetic, we will only live to regret it sometime in the future.

Anonymous said...

Seeking the truth in cover-ups? Yes, but depends on what cover-ups.

So, if even we assume Toh Chin Chye (right?) and friend were telling the truth and LKY is lying. So? You think the votes will change drastically? Did he commit an illegal crime by denying?

Lying to save face is very common (although I do not approve of it), so if he is to be held accountable for that supposed lie, then many more voters have to be guilty of that too.

Anonymous said...

My point, hitting on a person's character is an ineffective tactic.

In fact, it could mean that that is all the attacker has and nothing else to argue/support his case.

Will backfire.

ablackbox said...

"Secondly, if he had been PM, I am sure he would have abandoned his reference to China, changed allies, and taken advantage of the Western influence. "

Really? Isn't this counterfactual history, making a guess (a sure one at that) that something would have happened without any proof to back it up.

Ditto for the conspiracy theory about the merger. As much as it might make use of all the events to "explain" what has happened, there is little proof that can be cited.

Anti-Serpent said...

Dear SoloBear (no trick question)

Today is sabbath, it is a Holy Day. This is a public forum.

JESUS is my personal saviour, and He cleanses me from all my sin. I am not ashamed to admit that.

Dear SoloBear, can You tell us (all those who participated in this public forum), Who is JESUS to you? Did HE cleanses your sin?

I remind you, you (the persona typing the keyboard) can choose not to acknowledge GOD and JESUS in public... and you know the consequences.

I also remind you, you (the persona typing the keyboard) can play around with language, say JESUS is NOT solobears saviour... But you cannot cheat GOD.

This is my challenge to you, solobear, NO NAME CALLING. You can view me as persecution, let GOD and the readers of this public forum see, how you (the persona firing behind the screen on the keyboard) stand out and say, WHO IS JESUS to you, WHAT IS YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD.

From a Christian.

Webfraction said...

Hi Christian,
Do you like to read the translation of quran? I read the bible, it is so confusing....

Icemoon said...

Lee's story was that the Tengku kicked Singapore out. Tengku's story was that Lee wanted out and hence created problems.

Where did you get the Tunku part?

The fact was that this was actually about one Malay country (Indonesia) against another Malay country (Malaysia). Singapore was dragged in, because we were part of Malaysia. Not because the Malays were against the Chinese.

It is a fact there were tensions between Malay and Chinese in Indonesia and Malaysia. After 1965 Singapore was seen as possibly a Chinese proxy by Indonesia. It was to reassure them that Singapore only established formal relationship with China after Indonesia done so in 1990.

solo bear said...

Icemoon:
>>Where did you get the Tunku part?
>>

Me:
Tunku's version was aired on Discovery Channel a few years back.

>>It is a fact there were tensions between Malay and Chinese in Indonesia and Malaysia. After 1965 Singapore was seen as possibly a Chinese proxy by Indonesia. It was to reassure them that Singapore only established formal relationship with China after Indonesia done so in 1990.
>>

Me:
This is the twist and lie of the PAP. The tension during the merger time was that Indonesia (and Philippines) were worried about Malaysia's plan because they saw it as an expansionist attempt. The Confrontation between Indon and Msia was about one Malay country pitting against another. Singapore was targetted by Indon BECAUSE we were seen as part of Malaysia.

Very dishonestly, PAP uses that to create a fear among the Chinese that it is about "the sea of Malays" about to get the Chinese in Singapore.

As I said, LKY's play is always about race, race, race. He knows nothing else. He did that during the merger, during the Confrontation, during the Malaysian riots in 1969 - and he is replaying it again in his interview now. LKY is a racist. Period.

Actually, it is not only the PAP that plays the race card. There are some Chinese chauvinists who do the same. During the 1997 SE Asian crisis, when staple food prices shot up in Indonesia, many villagers attacked shopkeepers because they could not afford their daily rice. It was an economic issue.

However, some Chinese portrayed that attack as a "Malay vs Chinese" attack. It just so happened that the shopkeepers were Chinese.

This is bad. It shows that the PAP has drilled into some Chinese here that it is all about the Malays are out to get you. I am a Chinese myself and I detest strongly against all these very aggressive and hostile methods of dividing races.

Icemoon said...

solo bear, I have not watched that Discovery documentary, so I can't comment. Are you sure Tunku really said LKY's ultimate aim was to be out?

I think you don't understand the geopolitics of the region and the region's relationship with China. There are other factors like unequal distribution of wealth that lead to bumi-Chinese tension in Malaya and Indonesia.

You cannot just brush off everything as "twist and lie of the PAP". You know how politics work? Politicians fan an issue and frame it to suit their agenda (the narrative). This is not to say the issue doesn't exist!

solo bear said...

Icemoon,
>>solo bear, I have not watched that Discovery documentary, so I can't comment. Are you sure Tunku really said LKY's ultimate aim was to be out?
>>

Me:
No. He did not say that. He said the separation was mutual.

It was through the narration of the documentary that implied LKY engineered the separation. Before the merger, Lim Chin Siong was controlling the Chinese ground. LKY, who couldn't speak Chinese (then) could not connect to the mass. All he could do was to watch LCS commanded the Chinese to move against the Brits.

When Malaysia was to merge, PAP approached a very unwilling Tunku to accept us. PAP sold to Sporeans through a referendum why it is good for us to merge. This was the time Tunku made if very, very clear to PAP that the consti of Msia is includes the bumi policy. In other words, can PAP accept that term?

So for all the talk that Spore is being "fair" and called for the demolition of the bumi policy, you can actually say the PAP did all this in bad faith. They backtracked on the bumi policy immediately after Msia accepted us.

It was because of the merger the Tunku locked LCS up, because he saw LCS a bigger threat than LKY. If he did not lock LCS up, LCS would be a big problem, using the Chinese mass to rebel against the Tunku.

After LCS was disposed, LKY then made a lot of trouble for Tunku till he decided to let us go. Of course, you can now understand why LKY cried crocodile tears on TV. He needed to cover up his sneaky plan.

But that is finally exposed in his eulogy when he admitted Dr Goh KS mooted the separation.


>>I think you don't understand the geopolitics of the region and the region's relationship with China. There are other factors like unequal distribution of wealth that lead to bumi-Chinese tension in Malaya and Indonesia.
>>

Me:
I think it is you who don't understand the geo-politics. China, heck, the rest of the Chinese population in the world, don't give a hoot what happens to the Chinese in this part of the world. Here are my arguments to support my claim:

1. When Chin Siong used the Chinese ground to garner support for a China style govt against the Brits, China gave no hoot. Did China help CS when he got locked up?

2. When we had Chinese and Malays rioting in the 1960s, did China see it as an attack against Chinese? Nope, it was our internal problem.

3. When Spore tried to attract Hong Kongers as PRs, in anticipation of Brit handing back power to China hence many HKers would leave, hardly any HKers rushed here. They stayed put.

4. We were called "pisai" (nose-shit) by the Taiwanese for interfering with their dispute with China. A much more derogatory term than red dot.

5. During the 1997 SE Asian Financial collapse, when many Indonesian villagers attacked shopowners because price of rice shot up, many Chinese here instigated China to intervene, saying it was a racial riot against Chinese. What did China do? Nothing.

6. For all the claims Msian Chinese are badly treated there and Spore Chinese have it good here, there are still many Msian Chinese who prefer Msia.

Please note that it is PAP (and some Chinese here) that keeps playing the race card, expecting China to help us because "we are of the same skin colour."

In reality, the Chinese in China, HK, Taiwan and even Msia, don't give the Chinese around here any hoot.

All tensions in Malaysia should be kept there. Same with affairs of other nations.

It is not our bloody business to nose into the internal affairs of our neighbours. We did that too much and hence, Msia keeps saying we are "biadap" (bloody rude), Indon calls us "little red dot" and Taiwan calls us "pisai".

solo bear said...

>>You know how politics work?
>>

Yes. Very much indeed. I was involved in grassroots and ground politics in my late twenties to mid thirties. That was more than ten years ago. I saw the dirty tricks played and decided to leave.

>>Politicians fan an issue and frame it to suit their agenda (the narrative). This is not to say the issue doesn't exist!
>>

Me:
Race issues will always exist. It is politicians who overblow it.

As I said, in the 1970s, there was true racial harmony. Chinese, Malays and Indians were all friends.

We saw Zul as our friend, not our Malay friend.

We saw Arasan as our friend, not our Indian friend.

We saw Jagdish as our friend, not our Sikh friend.

We saw Morrier as our friend, not as our Eurasian friend.

Today, it is all about race, race, race.

Icemoon said...

solo bear, for the record I'm not trying to put you down. I'm also learning .. hope you be patient with me.

Care to share why in 1970 there was true racial harmony? How was it achieved? How come when they were in enclaves last time and attended vernacular schools, there was more racial harmony?

Icemoon said...

solo bear, I mentioned geo-politics, ie. racial tensions, China's involvement in the region (MCP, PKI, Vietnam, Cambodia etc.), not whether China chup or bochup us.

. When Chin Siong used the Chinese ground to garner support for a China style govt against the Brits, China gave no hoot. Did China help CS when he got locked up?

Communist China lent tacit support to MCP. Why did you drag LCS in, who by his own account claimed he was nobody's front man.

Icemoon said...

solo bear, you said:

No. He did not say that. He said the separation was mutual.
..
But that is finally exposed in his eulogy when he admitted Dr Goh KS mooted the separation.


I'm still confused. If GKS mooted the separation, how does this imply LKY engineered the separation? This only shows both sides had good reasons to be separated, ie. it was mutual.

solo bear said...

Icemoon,
>>Care to share why in 1970 there was true racial harmony? How was it achieved? How come when they were in enclaves last time and attended vernacular schools, there was more racial harmony?
>>

Me:
You know what? You asked some very good questions that I never even thought in my whole life! Serious!

When I wanted to answer you, I just couldn't think of any specific answers. Everything "just happened". It was not planned. Nobody came up and said, "Let's live together in harmony using this method..." It just happened!

From my perspective, I was too young to carry any baggage of the past riots. Yes, I knew there was fighting, curfews and lots of people getting hurt. I just didn't know what the issue was about. I did not see it as "Malays hacking Chinese to death", as what my grandparents and the PAP told me. I saw it as some "big people" (ie adults) who had nothing better to do than to fight each other.

Later, when I grew up and met friends my age, we all didn't carry the baggage of the past either. We knew "nothing" about it. It was my mom who was worried when I told her I had many Malay friends and working colleagues.

This racial harmony carried from 1970s through the early 1990s. We didn't have any Racial Harmony in school. We didn't have to. Everyday was a racial harmony day!

Today, when I see school kids celebrating Racial Harmony Day, it looks so artificial. It's like you don't have racial harmony now, that's why you need to remind yourselves the importance of racial harmony!

So to ask me how did my generation achieve that, I can't tell you. It just happened. It was so natural, we didn't even think about it.

Sporeans only re-started thinking about race AFTER the GRCs, HDB race quota, and racially divisive funds were implemented.

So the irony is that we saw no race issues when we did not have any institutions to integrate, but we became race conscious AFTER we had a system to "integrate".

To me, this is all planned. The PAP uses the race card, to keep Sporeans divided.

>>Communist China lent tacit support to MCP. Why did you drag LCS in, who by his own account claimed he was nobody's front man.
>>

Me:
I NEVER claimed that LCS claimed to be communist. In fact I believe he wasn't one. It was LKY, the Brits and Tunku who claimed him to be one, so as to give a good reason to lock him up.

The Brits couldn't tahan him because he really was able to command the Chinese groups to rally against them. He was a real thorn in the *ss. To Tunku, he was so afraid of him, one of the conditions that Singapore gets accepted into the federation was to have LCS locked up. To LKY, heck, it suited him just fine because he truly wanted to get rid of LCS!

>>I'm still confused. If GKS mooted the separation, how does this imply LKY engineered the separation? This only shows both sides had good reasons to be separated, ie. it was mutual.
>>

Goh Keng Swee was part of the PAP team that campaigned for the merger. In LKY's eulogy upon the passing of GKS, he mentioned GKS was the one mooted the idea of separation. It is my personal belief that actually it was LKY, but he didn't want to admit it, because the separation carries a lot of bad blood.

But whether it was GKS or LKY, it still came from Singapore. So for all the claims that we were "kicked out", LKY's own eulogy shows that PAP has been fibbing about the separation all along.

Icemoon said...

Tunku said the separation was mutual. LKY said we were kicked out. Are the two views irreconcilable? No lah, LKY didn't lie, he just never told us the full story :P

I don't think PAP has hidden agenda to keep Singapore divided by racial lines. I mean, what purpose does this serve?

Your observation is correct. Pre 80s, PAP tried to introduce Malay language, downplay immigrant's history and forge the official narrative in terms of PAP triumph over communism and communalism. IIRC, civil servants had to pass Malay to be qualified, this was after '65.

After 1978 (when Deng visited Singapore), PAP started to be pro-Chinese. That's why we have SAP, MT policy etc. to tackle the "Chinese issue". I don't see this as systematic attempt to discriminate the minorities. Of course, they could have done more for the minorities.

Today when they try to repair the damage (in fact any damage), it looks good from the outside (foreigners like to praise PAP policy 'cos they have no historical baggage), but we feel so wayang and fake.

I suppose you can call their tactics 'racist' in a way, but this is misleading. Do the minorities think the policies benefit the Chinese? I guess everybody suffered in a way.

solo bear said...

Just to add a little more. The GRC was introduced in 88 and the hdb race quota in 89.

Within just a few short years by early 1990s, society became more and more race conscious, which was not present before the 1990s.

Icemoon said...

Our society has always been race-conscious since Raffles and his town planning. Pre '80, you probably can tell this place is Chinese enclave, that one Malay enclave, this is Chinese school, that one not. Tell me, isn't this race conscious as well? The difference now is how the 'racial consciousness' is being invoked.

There is always tension between ethnicity and nationality in our region. PAP is not lying about the precarious position of Chinese in a Malay dominated region and how our Chinese majority affects Singapore's relationship with her neighbours.

While we may not get perfect score for 'racial harmony', at least the tension here is lower than in neighboring countries. Didn't Najib warn teachers? who called the Chinese 'penumpang'? In Indonesia I can feel the Chinese are perpetually on guard against the natives.

solo bear said...

Icemoon
>>I don't think PAP has hidden agenda to keep Singapore divided by racial lines. I mean, what purpose does this serve?
>>

Me:
To create a need for us to vote for PAP. Like if we do not vote them, the opposition won't take care of us, and the Malays from the North and South will grab this opportunity to take over our land.

That has been the tune PAP has been playing for decades.

>>After 1978 (when Deng visited Singapore), PAP started to be pro-Chinese. That's why we have SAP, MT policy etc. to tackle the "Chinese issue".
>>

Me:
If that were true, we would then promote Chinese as a good language to learn. Like what was done to Malay after 65.

But no, it was made that only Chinese take MT Chinese and Malays take Malay. Same with Indians having to take an Indian language.

Why is that so? Why can't Chinese continue to take Malay as Second Language? Or Malays or Indians take CL? Why polarize the races?

The Deng Xiaoping explanation is an old excuse that doesn't work anymore.

>>Today when they try to repair the damage (in fact any damage), it looks good from the outside (foreigners like to praise PAP policy 'cos they have no historical baggage), but we feel so wayang and fake.
>>

Me:
There are foreigners who praise as well as criticize. One of the criticism is the very racist policies I mentioned. That was what the UN reported a few months back.

>>I suppose you can call their tactics 'racist' in a way, but this is misleading. Do the minorities think the policies benefit the Chinese? I guess everybody suffered in a way.
>>

Me:
Why don't you ask the minorities themselves and hear it right from the horse's mouth? I am a Chinese and there is only so much I can speak for the minorities.

>>Our society has always been race-conscious since Raffles and his town planning. Pre '80, you probably can tell this place is Chinese enclave, that one Malay enclave, this is Chinese school, that one not. Tell me, isn't this race conscious as well? The difference now is how the 'racial consciousness' is being invoked.
>>

Me:
That's what I told you! We had racial enclaves all along. But nobody was afraid that Little India or Geylang Serai would sprout racists such that it would polarize Singapore. Why the fear now that we have to have race quotas in HDB?

Furthermore, isn't the SAP schools doing exactly that? That is polarizing, because it cuts off the Chinese from the other races? Why the double standards in "race integration"?

>>There is always tension between ethnicity and nationality in our region.
>>

Me:
I don't deny that. I am saying that PAP is overblowing it.

>>PAP is not lying about the precarious position of Chinese in a Malay dominated region and how our Chinese majority affects Singapore's relationship with her neighbours.
>>

Me:
That I totally disagree. Let me repeat. No one - yes, NO ONE - gives a hoot about what happens in Singapore. Not the Malaysians, not the Indonesians, not the Chinese in China, and not even the Taiwanese.

It is PAP that is playing the race card that there is a "sea of Malays out there" trying to gobble up our land - haha!

Malaysia's problem is Malaysia's problem. Indonesia's problem is Indonesia's problem. Same with the Tawian-China dispute. Who is Singapore to interfere in other people's affairs?

They are fed up because we have been poking our nose into their affairs. It has NOTHING to do about we are Chinese and hence, the Malays are out to get us, or we are Chinese and hence Taiwan and China must help us.

solo bear said...

>>While we may not get perfect score for 'racial harmony', at least the tension here is lower than in neighboring countries. Didn't Najib warn teachers? who called the Chinese 'penumpang'? In Indonesia I can feel the Chinese are perpetually on guard against the natives.
>>

Me:
Let me ask you one question. Are you a Singaporean? If yes, then let's mind our own business and leave them alone.

Icemoon said...

Sorry, I still don't see the link between dividing us along racial lines and creating a need for us to vote for them. PAP can still threaten us with chaos even if we are not divided along racial lines?

Malay was promoted as a good language to learn for political reasons. I guess the main gripe about MT policy is not whether you can take other people's MT or not, but which is our MT. If you like, you can always take up Malay/Jap/German etc. as third language.

When you have enclaves and vernacular schools, this is bad for integration (note: I'm not saying bad for nation, but bad for integration). That's why PAP thinks it is good to mix around and void decks can be used for interaction. But today, even Chinese dunno their Chinese neighbors and void decks are used exclusively for Malay marriages and Chinese funerals, lol

As for SAP schools ,that was PAP way to cultivate Chinese talents. LKY was far-sighted enough to see the rise of China before the end of communism.

Oh no .. am I parroting gahman propaganda to you? :P

solo bear said...

>>Sorry, I still don't see the link between dividing us along racial lines and creating a need for us to vote for them. PAP can still threaten us with chaos even if we are not divided along racial lines?
>>

Me:
Yes, they can still threaten without race. But they choose to do it the race way. It has been that way since independence.

>>Malay was promoted as a good language to learn for political reasons. I guess the main gripe about MT policy is not whether you can take other people's MT or not, but which is our MT. If you like, you can always take up Malay/Jap/German etc. as third language.
>>

Me:
That is NOT the point. The point is that if you argue that it is advantageous to learn Chinese, then non-Chinese should be allowed to take CL as MT. Why burden with 3rd language?

>>When you have enclaves and vernacular schools, this is bad for integration
>>

Me:
That's PAP's argument. I have shown you that in my time, that idea is rubbish.

>>As for SAP schools ,that was PAP way to cultivate Chinese talents. LKY was far-sighted enough to see the rise of China before the end of communism.
>>

Me:
So talent to you means picking only Chinese and shutting out non-Chinese? That's the racism I have been telling you all along!

>>Oh no .. am I parroting gahman propaganda to you? :P
>>

Me:
You said it better than I do!

Icemoon said...

> That is NOT the point. The point is that if you argue that it is advantageous to learn Chinese, then non-Chinese should be allowed to take CL as MT. Why burden with 3rd language?

Err .. if you do that, it is no longer MT anymore right? :P

> That's PAP's argument. I have shown you that in my time, that idea is rubbish.

You mean from your own experience? Is it possible one has not many Malay friends due to studying in Chinese school and living in Chinese kampong? Isn't HDB quota better? At least you are 'forced' to meet your Malay neighbour once in a while, and 'forced' to interact with Malay students in school. :P

So talent to you means picking only Chinese and shutting out non-Chinese? That's the racism I have been telling you all along!

I said Chinese talents. Even ang moh can be Chinese talent, do you know that? Anyway there was never an issue about minorities denied the chance to become Chinese talent.

You want proof? Here is it:

2 top Malay students score in Chinese too

By Leow Si Wan

TWO of the three top-performing Malay students in last year's GCE O levels have a few things in common.

For starters, Lucille Annabelle Latiff of Crescent Girls' School and Shazana Zaihan of Ngee Ann Secondary School turned in identical scores - seven A1s and an A2.

The two 16-year-olds also took Chinese as their second language, although for different reasons.

For Shazana, it was because she had someone at home able to help her with it - her mother Chow Sow May.

The 50-year-old administrative assistant had decided that all her five daughters, aged 13 to 22, would study Chinese.

She said: 'I can't speak Malay well and their father is often busy at work, so if they took Chinese, I could help them in the language.'

For Lucille, who is of Malay-Eurasian-Filipino parentage, taking Chinese was a decision her father made for practical reasons.

Mr Lenny Allen Latiff, 50, said that Singapore is a predominantly Chinese society and that it would be easier for someone who knows Chinese to get a job.

http://www.asiaone.com/News/Education/Story/A1Story20100112-191372.html

Icemoon said...
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Icemoon said...
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solo bear said...

>>Err .. if you do that, it is no longer MT anymore right? :P
>>

Me:
Yes! That's right! Let's revert to the old system of second language. MT is a racist policy. Second Language worked fine.

>>You mean from your own experience?
>>

Me:
I worked on the ground at grassroots level, remember? I got feedback right from the horse's mouth - uncensored, unrehearsed, unscripted - unlike the "feedback" sessions ministers have.

>>Is it possible one has not many Malay friends due to studying in Chinese school and living in Chinese kampong? Isn't HDB quota better?
>>

Me:
No! Schools work better. In school, you are FORCED to mix with other students. You study together, you play together, you do project work together.

In HDB, you have a choice to lock yourself up.

>>I said Chinese talents. Even ang moh can be Chinese talent, do you know that?
>>

Me:
With the SAP system, how many non-Chinese Chinese talents can you get? Are you not cutting off the major bulk of non-Chinese?

>>Anyway there was never an issue about minorities denied the chance to become Chinese talent.
>>

Me:
That is not the issue at all. The issue is why are the non-Chinese deprived of places in top schools because of the SAP system?

>>You want proof? Here is it:
2 top Malay students score in Chinese too
>>

Me:
Obviously, you are not familiar with the school system. For Shazana, her mother is a Chinese. She qualifies to take Chinese. That is MT. The language spoken by one of your parents.

For Lucille, I don't have the info but it does look like hers is a special case. These "special" cases are usually PRs, who are given the option to choose their MT. This is to give provision for PRs who may have other languages as their MT, be it Urdu, Punjabi, French, Japanese etc.

Looking at her name, Lucille Anabelle Latiff, and her heritage (Filipino-Eurasian-Malay), she may well be a child of PR and used that system to choose her MT - in this case, CL.

Icemoon said...

solo bear, are you sure there's sizeable no. of minority who wants to take up Chinese as MT, rather than their real MT? Is this the gripe from their respective communities? Or you are the only one who thinks this is a problem?

You are right! I'm not familiar with the school system. Perhaps a 100% non-Chinese local citizen can't take Chinese as MT. But this could be a side-effect or consequence of having such a system. This is not to say the system sets out to institutionally discriminate the minority. Could be if gahman allow us to pick our MT, then people will choose what's easiest to score. Then your real MT how? Doesn't the govt have responsibility to ensure some standard of Bahasa Melayu among Malay students? Won't the Malay community want that as well?

If one day Malay becomes more important than Chinese. Gahman says Chinese student cannot take Malay as MT. Then what .. you have discrimination against the majority? LOL

solo bear said...

>>solo bear, are you sure there's sizeable no. of minority who wants to take up Chinese as MT, rather than their real MT? Is this the gripe from their respective communities? Or you are the only one who thinks this is a problem?
>>

Me:
The point is not whether it is a gripe. The point is the illogical explanation that we need to learn Chinese because we need to be in tune with economic powerhouse China, yet deprive many of our citizens from taking Chinese!

If truly the reason for promoting Chinese is about being well-versed with the language of the new economic powerhouse, China, then shouldn't it be that we allow every single person who wishes to learn Chinese, be allowed to learn Chinese?

Why then this silly MT ruling, where it deprives non-Chinese to learn Chinese?

So that they will be economically not as competent as the Chinese to compete for the economic pie China offers?


Huh?

See the illogical explanation of "we promote Chinese because of China"?

Face it. PAP is promoting Chinese because it wants to divide the races. It has NOTHING to do with China! Period!

>>You are right! I'm not familiar with the school system.
>>

Me:
For someone who gave me the idea you are young and who would like to learn, it sounds funny you don't know the school system. You sound like someone who has been out of school for quite a while, studied or worked overseas, then return Singapore.

>>If one day Malay becomes more important than Chinese. Gahman says Chinese student cannot take Malay as MT. Then what .. you have discrimination against the majority? LOL
>>

Me:
Don't put up imaginary, non-existent issues. You tried to do that when you said the Malays won't be happy their contributions go to the Chinese, when you are not happy that your contribution may go to the Malays.

That "one day" you put up did happen! In the 1960s and 1970s, Malay was considered the better choice for Second Language. When I was in school, HALF the Chinese population in my school took Malay.

What policy that a Chinese cannot take Malay when Malay is important?

Stop imagining non-existent issues. That's bad.

Icemoon said...

You have to see the issue in historical context. MT was introduced when .. early 80s? China not even economic powerhouse. They are not expecting many non Chinese to take up Chinese as MT. Also the gahman wants each community to preserve its culture and roots, so you have MT. Plausible?

Just throwing ideas around lah.

Icemoon said...

My point is that if the underlying motivation is to preserve each community's culture, then each community should study their own MT. Of course problem is how you define one's MT. But to define Chinese as MT for Indian, isn't that absurd?

If we can just choose any language as MT, then this defeats the purpose.

Whether MT is a stupid educational policy or not is irrelevant.

solo bear said...

>>You have to see the issue in historical context. MT was introduced when .. early 80s? China not even economic powerhouse. They are not expecting many non Chinese to take up Chinese as MT. Also the gahman wants each community to preserve its culture and roots, so you have MT. Plausible?
>>

Me:
What are you talking? Didn't you say that we we needed to learn Chinese to get Chinese talents, in view of uprising China?

>>Whether MT is a stupid educational policy or not is irrelevant.
>>

Me:
To YOU, it is irrelevant because you are not affected. To the minorities, it is very, very relevant because they have been deprived of the many SAP vacancies in schools.

Anonymous said...

http://www.temasekreview.com/2011/02/17/mm-if-youre-going-in-for-personal-glory-forget-it/

MM: If you’re going in for personal glory, forget it
February 17th, 2011 | Author: Ng Kok Lim Temasek Review
Dear MM Lee,

I refer to the 12 Feb 2011 excerpts of your interview with the Straits Times.

Your most important lesson for aspiring politicians is to forget about going for personal glory. For someone who didn’t do it for personal glory, wouldn’t you push glory away when they are being heaped upon you? Many call you the founding father of Singapore. Clearly you don’t deserve that title which belongs to Sir Stamford Raffles. If you are not for glory, why not tell everybody to stop referring to you as the founding father? Some even refer to you as the Nelson Mandela of Singapore. You know how different you are from Nelson Mandela. You even once remarked how unusual it is for a man like Nelson Mandela to have no bitterness for being locked up for 27 years. Why keep undeserved glory that is heaped upon you?

You said you were putting your life at stake fighting the communists. But there were no communists. There were no finger nails pulled out. Why use a communist tale from elsewhere that never happened in Singapore?

You said we are an island with no resources. So what? Hong Kong, Taiwan and South Korea have little or no resources but have prospered just the same. Add Switzerland, Denmark, the Netherlands and Finland. They too have little or no resources but prospered too. In fact, our strategic location which is the very reason for our founding is the one resource that has allowed us to prosper in the first place.

You said you have done it and seen it through. No. You alone would have amounted to nothing. Without you, Singapore may be different but would be just as prosperous.

You said we leapfrogged by linking to the outer world instead of being dependent on the region. But that strategy came from Dr Albert Winsemius, not from you. You chose to depend on the region when you first took power in 1959. It was only with our separation from Malaysia in 1963 that we have no choice but to look towards the outer world like Dr Winsemius suggested.

You said your country is important to you. If that is the case, why didn’t you fight the Japanese like Lim Bo Seng did? Why did you work for the Japanese instead?

You said you spent your life building this country. No. This country was built by our forefathers since 1819.

Thank you

Ng Kok Lim